Wednesday, November 21, 2012

Church of England remains a bit more Catholic


In the inherent tension within Anglicanism, the vote on women bishops established simply that the laity is a little more Catholic than Reformed: the liberals had not quite done enough to persuade the traditionalists that there would be adequate protection and provision for the catholic wing if the legislation were to pass.

Anglicans are not freelance, theological pundits, but a valid part of the One Catholic and Apostolic Church. Like all expressions of ecclesiology, its orders are provisional, and this a theological, not a sociological judgment. The Church of England is historical and so mortal. It is a creature of continual creation; of adaptability in religio-political fluidity. It opposes immutability in theological expression, recognising that mobility is intrinsic to mortality: as believers are continually converted to God, there must be continual conversion to the nature of the Church, and those confessional bodies must be mutable, for none possesses exclusive ownership of the identity of Christ.

The Church of England was never designed to be Protestant, though it has elements of that movement within it. And it was certainly not Roman Catholic, though it drew on the strengths of that denomination to manifest the Church in a visible society. Its struggle has ever been how to permit freedom of the Spirit within ancient structures: how to put new wine into old wineskins.

This is why the Archbishop of York is right when he says there will be women bishops, because Anglicanism is a communion, and in that koinonia is toleration of mutual exclusives. At the core of Anglican identity is the belief that there is more than one church that is catholic; that there are non-Roman churches that are catholic; and that the Church of England is an expression of unity, catholicity and apostolicity. Of course, some will take issue with that - from within and without the Anglican communion - and this may lead to change, to transformation, either to centralised uniformity or to greater freedom and diversity. But the 'bottom line' is communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury who occupies the Chair of St Augustine. He is no pope with infallible authority to bind and excommunicate, but a bishop who tries to guide the life of the Communion in mutual loyalty and committed fellowship.

Catholicity is an aspiration, and women bishops are simply a continuation of the reformist movement which began in the 16th century. The Church of England departed not from the catholic Church, but from the errors of Rome. It was Whitgift who observed that the Church of England was 'reformed' not 'transformed' because 'we retain whatsoever we find to be good, refuse or reform that which is evil'. Over succeeding centuries, Anglicanism has offered catholicism without Roman centralisation and authoritarianism. It has been, in England, the Catholic Church in this land, set free from subjection to the foreign King of Rome.

And 'King' is used purposely, because Anglicanism is conciliar, not monarchical: it is a parliamentary church with powers devolved, not an autocratic church with authority centralised. And, for as long as that remains the case (and there was an attempt last year to shift towards a binding papal model), there will be innovation, change and progression. You may not agree with it, but it is intrinsic to Anglican identity. You may hear talk of splits and schisms, but these are nothing more than the spats of human mortality. For as long as we can examine what sort of church we are and question our core principles and values, there will be discussion, debate, tears and joy. The moment we cease to disagree and hurt each other is the moment the church ceases to be church.

120 Comments:

Blogger Superted said...

"The Church of England departed not from the catholic Church, but from the errors of Rome."

Oh come off it. You can state that as the reason it maintained a differing path to the Catholic Church in the long term, but it departed because Henry VIII wanted to screw everything in sight.

As for the Church of England, the catholic wing has few excuses left. The 'true' catholics left for the Ordinariate and will soon be in full communion with the Catholic Church. Those left behind have no reason to bitch.

If the Church of England had allowed female bishops, it would've at least had a coherent policy and differing stance from the Roman Catholic Church. As it stands, it's just a mish mash, and will continue to be a more and more irrelevant part of English life until its disestablishment by some political force, perhaps homosexual 'marriage'.

I pity you, as does Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev.

21 November 2012 10:50  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

You say that there will be change, innovation and progression. Progression towards what?

If our male priests are meant to represent God, whom are our female priests meant to represent?

‘Our Mother in heaven’?

But if that becomes the case then we will be a church which is not Christian. We will rather become members of an old religion that worships a goddess.

If we begin questioning our ‘core principles and values’, using the techniques found in the Cesspit, we will be inviting, as legitimate, the culture of repudiation.

Can we not see that to question everything will lead, in the end, to the loss of our ability to think?

21 November 2012 10:50  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

I'm too simple minded to comprehend everything you said Cranmer, so I'll just nod & make the occasional thoughtful "hmmm" noise so as not too appear ignorant.

As I see it, there are 2 camps: those who love 'progress' (which seems to be an agenda of adopting every aspect of the public sector "diversity & equality" manual. "The words “respect” and “equality” were used so often that the Synod sounded rather like a Labour conference fringe meeting." - Tim Stanley). And then there are those who love "tradition" which means keeping things the way they've always been because that's the tried & tested way.

Neither seem to care that much about The Word - written or incarnate. Neither seem to care that much about the lost or eternity.

This quote from Tim Stanley summarises it quite nicely for me:"The Synod really was Anglicanism in the raw – and seen from the outside it is a very strange creature. As a Roman Catholic, I don't understand its "evolving" attitude towards scripture and tradition. God, I always thought, is not for turning. But the Anglicans not only allow for change (which surely concedes that God makes mistakes?), but it also seem to have decided that building a consensus that accommodates that change is a sound alternative to a consistent theology. “Whatever happens, no matter how far we depart from Scripture or tradition … we must all stand together!”

I'm content to let both sides bicker into oblivion. The church of Rome appears more & more attractive.

21 November 2012 11:04  
Blogger Johnzh said...

I was going to start this comment with "perhaps I am naive", but I'm not naive, so that would be a lie. The Christian faith is predicated on the teachings of the Bible, not the teachings of the 'Church Fathers', unless we are talking about those whose names appear in each of the Epistles (except Hebrews).

The final words in the final chapter of the final book of the Bible clearly warn against adding to or taking away from God's Word, therefore the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ can never move forward without first looking back to what God's word it says on every issue in life.

Recently I was talking to my wife in our bed, I said to her, "you were made for me", I then added "and I was made for you". Instantly I experienced the rebuke of the Holy Spirit, and He said to me "No you were not". Then immediately the Scripture from 1 Corinthians chapter 11 came into my mind, 'the woman was made for the man, not the man for the woman'.

God's word is truth and woe to us if we depart from it, irrespective of how much the world hates it.

An antidote for those who are struggling with this concept that men and women are different before God, READ THE BIBLE.

21 November 2012 11:23  
Blogger Sadie Vacantist said...

It seems to be the evangelical and not the Catholic wing which is dragging their high heels on this issue: young and attractive females who do not hate men (but want to love them!), who are tired (bored) with the feminist agenda masquerading as progress within the synod. The argument that the house of bishops and clergy approved these developments is bizarre. If these bodies were truly representative, they also would also represent the same divisions and concerns with modernity which have manifested itself in recent years amongst the laity.

For the moment, the behaviour of the house of clergy and bishops smacks of an elite imposing its will upon everyone with zero provision for conscientious objections from those they purport to serve. They look and sound like the political and banking classes at prayer. It is they and their agenda which receives the bail out and when they don’t get one they sulk.

21 November 2012 11:30  
Blogger Aaron Lopez said...

That is some commendable mental gymnastics, Your Grace. The effort was at least admirable.

However, it seriously does no service to your immortal soul to pretend as if everything is okay, that the movements in Anglicanism are simply 'innovation, change, and progression', and that continuing on such a path is the way to enlightenment, and ultimately, to God. Quite frankly, it is not.

The state of your church(es) is evidence enough. Where the much publicized crises of the Catholic Church in the last few decades has only helped strengthen the actions of the true faithful (both laity and clergy alike), the relative indifference towards and invisibility of the Anglican Communion hasn't stopped it from fracturing and falling away not only from its original intentions, but the intentions of Christ.

It is the worst pain to see Anglicans continue to use the idea of both 'Catholic and Reformed'. It's tragic to see their faithful convincing themselves that their church is fine, that their doctrine is fine, and that their souls are fine. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is true that there are non-Roman Catholic Churches that have valid apostolic succession and valid sacraments. The Anglican Communion is not one of them.

This is not a comment meant to incite anger, rebuke, nor more reason for disunity. If it unfortunately leads to brother against sister, then like Christ, so be it. We are, however, ultimately dealing with Heaven and Hell here, and in order one-up that camel through the needle, we need unshakeable fidelity to the Truth.

May the Blessed Lord be our Light out of the darkness. All Christians need His help about now.

21 November 2012 11:43  
Blogger William said...

Sadie Vacantist

Good comment and it has certainly been my (albeit limited) impression that there are many (often young) women who have felt the need to speak out against the motion.

21 November 2012 11:49  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Very well said, your Grace. Thank you.

21 November 2012 11:49  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

The Church of England was never designed to be Protestant, though it has elements of that movement within it. And it was certainly not Roman Catholic, though it drew on the strengths of that denomination to manifest the Church in a visible society.

The Roman Catholic Church is not a denomination. I believe I've explained this to you in the past, Cranmer.

21 November 2012 11:53  
Blogger Justin Brett said...

@Aaron - I don't want to put words in His Grace's mouth - he is eloquent enough without my help - but I don't think his message was that everything is fine, but rather that everything will be fine.

@Your Grace - thank you for these words. I am currently less sanguine, but I am aware that I lack your length of experience in these matters!

21 November 2012 12:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

- Catholicity is an aspiration?

- Anglicanism is conciliar?

- The Church of England is historical and so mortal?

- A creature of continual creation; of adaptability in religio-political fluidity?

- Mobility is intrinsic to mortality?

- The Church of England departed not from the catholic Church, but from the errors of Rome?

- Anglicanism is conciliar?

- It is a parliamentary church with powers devolved?

"Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made.

"No, you shall not die the death. For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil."

21 November 2012 12:19  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Dodo:

The only responsible way to reply to that comment is to go:

Boo, HISSSSSSSSS!

Yours slitheringly.

21 November 2012 12:31  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

I think the translation of the above article is "keep calm and carry on".

The CofE isn't even a laughing stock any more. I actually feel sorry for anyone who simply wants to worship and has to put up with all this distracting nonsense.

21 November 2012 13:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

AIB

Not at all.

"And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed ... I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

And:

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."


Not a Church that is:

Aspirational, conciliar, mortal,
adaptable, fluid, or parliamentary with powers devolved.

Now try being irresponsible it may have grater impact!

21 November 2012 13:29  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

You are quite right. The Church of England was never intended to be protestant. Henry VIII never departed from catholic doctrine. In fact, he saw to it that the church understood this. It was his sickly son who tried the protestant route. But the man who stamped "PROTESTANT" on England was the Dutch king Billy. It was he who saw to it that the monarch never married a Roman Catholic. Interesting that our half-Dutch deputy prime minister is seeking to overturn this and his mother's country continues with King Billy's ideas of royal marital bliss.

21 November 2012 13:32  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

With apologies to Chesterton, I cannot help but feel the Chursh in the UK is up to its old, irrelevant, tricks.


ARE they clinging to their crosses, F.E. Smith,
Where the Breton boat-fleet tosses,
Are they, Smith?
Do they, fasting, trembling, bleeding,
Wait the news from this our city?
Groaning ‘That’s the Second Reading!’
Hissing ‘There is still Committee!’
If the voice of Cecil falters,
If McKenna’s point has pith,
Do they tremble for their altars?
Do they, Smith?

Russian peasants round their pope Huddled, Smith,
Hear about it all, I hope, Don’t they, Smith?
In the mountain hamlets clothing
Peaks beyond Caucasian pales,
Where Establishment means nothing
And they never heard of Wales,
Do they read it all in Hansard
With a crib to read it with —
‘Welsh Tithes: Dr Clifford Answered.’
Really, Smith?

In the lands where Christians were, F.E. Smith,
In the little lands laid bare, Smith, O Smith!
Where the Turkish bands are busy
And the Tory name is blessed
Since they hailed the Cross of Dizzy
On the banners from the West!
Men don’t think it half so hard if
Islam burns their kin and kith,
Since a curate lives in Cardiff Saved by Smith.
It would greatly, I must own, Soothe me, Smith!
If you left this theme alone, Holy Smith!

For your legal cause or civil
You fight well and get your fee;
For your God or dream or devil
You will answer, not to me.
Talk about the pews and steeples
And the Cash that goes therewith!
But the souls of Christian peoples . . .
Chuck it, Smith!

21 November 2012 13:35  
Blogger Philip said...

With respect to all those from Rowan Williams to Mr Cameron who go on about the need for the CofE to keep in step with 'modern society' and so on, this is not the role of the church. Being "established" doesn't mean it's there to represent society to God in effect telling Him how He must change His views to suit us, but rather to represent and speak God's word to the nation.

The Biblical concept of equality isn't entirely the same as the current secular one. Anyway, as HG indicates, it does seem the women bishops measure was lost due to inadequate protection and provision for traditionalists. I wonder if the issue at stake is not so much women bishops, but the desire of ‘liberals' to impose their will on or force traditionalists out of the church. I think I heard it reported there were some who are in favour of women bishops but who voted against due to inadequate provision for traditionalists.

21 November 2012 13:40  
Blogger Johnzh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 November 2012 13:46  
Blogger Johnzh said...

Following yesterday's defeat of the ordination of women bishops in the Syndo, there has been much reporting about the motivation of those who voted.

I totally agree, what was the motivation of almost 2/3 of those who voted in favour of women bishops in complete contradiction to the teachings of the Word of God?

21 November 2012 13:47  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

A case of the land where the one eyed lead blind Roman Catholics and Anglican.

" As a Roman Catholic, I don't understand its "evolving" attitude towards scripture and tradition. God,(Utterly hilarious. Are all the current dogma and traditions held by Rome what were preached by Polycarp and early 'APOSTOLIC' [personally knew the Apostles} church fathers. I think NOT!) I always thought, is not for turning (As supposedly Rome is but evidence says otherwise). But the Anglicans not only allow for change (which surely concedes that God makes mistakes?)(See first comment Tim lad. It appears Rome clarifies what God couldn't!), but it also seem to have decided that building a consensus that accommodates that change is a sound alternative to a consistent theology (Whereas the pronunciations of self appointed 'heirs' are not?). “Whatever happens, no matter how far we (ALL??) depart from Scripture or tradition … we must all stand together!”" Must we? Load of old Cobblers!!!

Ernst 'this fella is not for turning' Blofeld

21 November 2012 13:59  
Blogger LondonVicar said...

I wonder if ++ Rowan's recent comments are helping or hindering the church?

If he stresses the vote has undermined the church's position,
that is how people at large, fanned by the media, will take it.

He is simply playing into the hands of our detractors.

And the people who get the blame are 'those few wicked lay traditionalists'.

Whereas the people are to blame are the Bishops who did not listen to the demand for proper legal provision.

And who did not listen to ++ Rowan and ++ York who wanted to make provision stronger last year.

The blame game has already started.

21 November 2012 14:00  
Blogger Enemyof the State said...

ICHABOD (and quite some time ago too).

21 November 2012 14:12  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

Your Grace has clearly 'evolved' from your historical self.
Though in your former existence 'Archbishop of Bray' would have been more appropriate the Archbishop of Canterbury, you would have NEVER countenanced 'Lady bishopesses' because there can be found no justification in scripture.
[Mind you-I am quite prepared to be corrected when your long lost secret diary is found!!]

21 November 2012 15:27  
Blogger Bridget said...

@Ernst Blofeld

The RC Church doesn't evolve dogma, it develops it. It is an unfoldment, an explicitation of what is already present. Its claim is that no truth poclaimed in the past is ever rendered untrue in the future.

21 November 2012 15:41  
Blogger Mike Stallard said...

Have you heard the one about the disciples planning who was going to be greatest in the kingdom?
Anyway, it isn't about that. This is about power and pretty fancy clothes and lovely hats and giving greetings in the streets and taking the top table at weddings.
PS the rest of the world has been consecrating Anglican Bishops certainly since 1989 when I left.

21 November 2012 16:24  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

The liberals in frocks are not amused with the rebellious flocking sheeple

I have never done any homework into whether there are connections between Oil and Wars for Israel

So I shall not be showing any interest in whether there are connections between the incoming Archoilman and Friends of Israel

Hence I will have no reason to bring the matter up or take any flack for it, naughty sheeple!

21 November 2012 17:30  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Sadie Vacantist

"Young women ... are bored with ..the feminist agenda masquerading as progress within the synod."


I think it might be deeper than that. They see that at the heart of it the feminist agenda is deeply anti family and anti Christian. They are not stupid and can see that this message has caused untold pain to the 60s generation.

Feminism has not worked and they want something better for their children

phil


21 November 2012 17:38  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 November 2012 18:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



I say Archbishop, a wonderful eulogy from you exalting the CoE you WISH you had. One would say you are around 35 years out of date.

+Salisbury was on the radio today. Highly annoyed about ‘12 years work’ down the pan. Hardly, 12 years work delayed for 3, more like it. The schism has been nailed up on the church door for all to see, like reading of the banns. The liberals have won. The church WILL split. Traditionalists have 36 months to decide what to do with themselves. Quite obvious their presence will not be enjoyed by the new gang. That’s the problem with civil war - lasting resentment. Still, at least they won’t be shown the door as such. The English don’t do that, they just glare at you instead…

In an ever changing world, one cannot understand the urge to change with it so eagerly. The church has always been an anchor in this man’s life, Vatican II excepted. It’s unchanging endurance a comfort. As a child, he still remembers the first guitar brought into mass. That was a black day, I can tell you. Hence the memory of it, to be carried to the grave…





21 November 2012 18:24  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 November 2012 18:30  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Your Grace,

I have to admit I am confused on this whole women Vicars/Bishops issue.

Perhaps if the Church didn't have Bishops it would remove the problem?

It seems like the Bishops- the ones with apparent authority -are going against their own catholic traditions and their own holy book in order to 'move with the times'.

How flimsy is that, in so much as you would have thought christianity came about 5 minutes ago and not 2,000 years ago.What kind of religion bends the knee to the secular world so easily it will forgo all of that tradition, which was around long before socialist or liberal thinking to look trendy? (as G-d should be listening to opinion polls now?)

It is like asking death to stop carrying a scythe and dressing in black robes- perhaps death, like G/D needs to become more trendy and more modern, like he needs a chainsaw and Khaki combat trousers (lol).

It seems like a lot of the pro-women bishops fraction are lashing out. One of the Bishops is saying that opponents of female bishops are from zog or something or at least that is what he is writing in the Guardian, but I though that G'd willed these things via prayer and the Holy Ghost?

But what is even more baffling is that some people are saying the debate was not about the merits of women bishops but how opponents wanted to have more 'safeguards', so the whole thing was about keeping a unity which does not exist. That doesn't seem honest to me.

And now we have the politicians threatening to revoke the Church's exemptions from equality legislation because it didn't go the liberal way.

If the argument is about equality (I've noted no reference to the actual religion in the backlash by the girl vicars) then can we have the same bishops and female priests, who are so concerned about equality calling for gay priests and gay marriage in Church then? That would be consistent, if this whole issue was about equality.

As for the government intervention, how does this affect other faiths?

An extremely confused and bemused Hannah .

21 November 2012 18:35  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Oh, bred in the bone provides the answer- it is all the fault of the Frums! Thought it might be...afterall we do rule the word via morris dancing or something.

21 November 2012 18:37  
Blogger Turnip Ghost said...

And Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox; neither group ordains women at all, to even the Sub-Diaconate.
But "Rome" gets obsessed about for provincial historical reasons; people who claim to be cosmopolitan and educated should really read up more on groups that number over 300 million people.

21 November 2012 18:37  
Blogger len said...

The Church should not accept change just to 'keep in step' with the secular World.This is one of the problems with a State linked Church.There have been' mutterings' about enforcing equality regulations on the Church, not quite got there ...yet.

For those who[mistakenly] think the church of England is merely about the desires of Henry VIII this is a often quoted misconception used in an attempt to denigrate the Church.
For those Catholic`s who claim that their Church is the' Mother Church'(with all the matriarchal symbols to add 'authenticity)this too is false..... the 'original church' was Jewish.
The Reformation of which the Church of England is a glorious part was formed by former Catholic Priests who could no longer endure the errors of Rome.Many lost their lives because they prefered truth to error.



21 November 2012 18:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Hannah @ 18.35, you're not confused, you've hit the nail on the head.

Everything now points to a concerted attack by the bishops and clergy on the Laity, whipped on by the homosexual lobby and metrosexual trendoids like Dave.

The Laity will be given two options. Either they vote again and get it Left, or they will lose the right to vote at all. This communicant predicts the latter outcome. Dave is already terrified of a grass-roots revolt on SSM and the vote of the Laity on bishopettes is a worrying precedent.

Equality uber alles.

21 November 2012 19:06  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Hannah

"If the argument is about equality (I've noted no reference to the actual religion in the backlash) then can we have the same bishops and female priests, who are so concerned about equality calling for gay priests and gay marriage in Church then? That would be consistent, if this whole issue was about equality."

That bit of equlity will have to wait a few more months in case it scares off the waverers in the Church. Step 2 will be Gay marriage alongside wholescale revison of the bible. Step 3 will be "any sex is good so don't feel guilty about it" (When questioned on the blogs run by the Inclusive Church and others they mean ANY sex). Acceptance of Abortion as a Blessing (Epsiscopal Church USA) seems to also be necessary (cannot think why!)Step 4 is presumably full on Satan worship.

Phil




21 November 2012 19:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Of course, the real reason Jesus did not entrust his legacy to the gals is their weakness of deep thought. Damn good with children though, so they are...

pip pip !

21 November 2012 19:53  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Bridget

"The RC Church doesn't evolve dogma, it develops it. It is an unfoldment, an explicitation of what is already present. Its claim is that no truth poclaimed in the past is ever rendered untrue in the future. "CODSWALLOP!

21 November 2012 19:55  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

That's the only thing Blofeld's ever written on this forum which is actually legible.

21 November 2012 20:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blofeld old fellow. We’ve been entertained by your wisdom (sic) for some time now, but the Inspector has yet to find you divulging your church. Come on man, let’s have it...

21 November 2012 20:05  
Blogger William said...

Corrigan1 said

"The Roman Catholic Church is not a denomination. I believe I've explained this to you in the past, Cranmer."

I guess we can conclude then that on this blog, at least, Roman Catholicism is indeed a denomination.

21 November 2012 20:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Corrigan
"That's the only thing" (i.e.
CODSWALLOP!) "Blofeld's ever written on this forum which is actually legible."

So true!

Inspector
Don't ya know, Blofeld's a 'Beany' or somthin' like dat.

len
I see your resolution to stop besmirching the Catholic Church didn't last too long.

21 November 2012 20:36  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

On the bright side, Rowan Willians' tenure is now confirmed as a total and complete failure.

carl

21 November 2012 20:36  
Blogger Laura said...

"The moment we cease to disagree and hurt each other is the moment the church ceases to be church."

Really?! That's a shame. I would have sworn that would be the moment Christ came back and we all stopped acting like loveless fools and started loving each other as we were always meant to. For reference, given that nobody ever seems to quote the bible:

John 13:34-35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

We should discuss. Debate. Thresh out the important issues. But hurt each other? No. That was never what we meant to be about.

21 November 2012 20:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

OOIG

Dear boy.

"but the Inspector has yet to find you divulging your church." As nobody has actually asked old Ernst, he is happy to oblige, tis no secret I must hold on to!

This old codger is a member of Coppice Mission Churches, that help the young at primary school, the elderly and the disabled to come to know Christ, Our Lord and King.

We support Spinnaker Trust http://www.spinnaker.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36:where-does-spinnaker-work&catid=15:about&Itemid=53

and

Open Doors care mission.http://www.opendoorsuk.org/

and

Mission Care http://www.missioncare.org.uk/

You can see some of what we elderly christians (Coppice Mission Church) do here.http://outlook-trust.org.uk/en/public/uploaded/Winter%202011-12%20Newsletter.pdf

We do door to door community work with local churches such as with CofE and Baptist churches etc but we are intrinsically a mission church .

Trust that helps, old chap.

Ernst is one of the real 'elderly' there and loves what his church tries to do for the aged and disabled and to show Christs love for all of us from believers who young people may think have gone beyond their 'use by' date! ;-)

Now be off with you lad, and look lively about it!

Ernst

ps

Just looking for me gun and cartridges as there's a squawking bird charging around the blog. Tally Ho!

21 November 2012 21:10  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Hannah I do not provide any answers only observe common consent to the English constitution

Do you consent to that or are you a foreign agent

21 November 2012 21:15  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Corigan1 21 November 2012 20:04

" That's the only thing Blofeld's ever written on this forum which is actually legible." That's probably because you are stuck at stage 1 of St Paul and Peters Rhythm and Rhyme activity package and have not advanced to their 100 key words section, which in your case appears light years away.

Blofeld

Ironically, stage 2 is the 'I Can Do It' which is a vital stepping stone to first being able to read P.R.O.P.E.R.L.Y. and includes simple pictures you can colour in, with free crayons provided. Yippee!! Head Down and Best of British, Paddy.

21 November 2012 21:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blofeld, the Inspector is indebted to you. He will bone up on your worthy organisation when he is slightly more sober. Still celebrating the defeat of “women’s hour”, you understand ...

Cheery pip !

21 November 2012 21:30  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

21 November 2012 21:39  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Mr Bone,

So now you are proposing a new Test Act for Jews? Well it if was good enough for Papist Recusant's ....

I guess we wouldn't want the perfidious Juden aided and abetted by the Romanist-Jesuits who control the illuminate or the bilderburp group and the council on foreign relations (who are guided by communist grey aliens from the roswell crash of 1947) to be disloyal to Engulund would we ?

I do love conspiracy theory tosh....lol

21 November 2012 21:41  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

I despise how you claim Catholic as if that was the only alternative to secular oblivion. The anglo-Catholic movement is a trick; both intellectually and spiritually. And real Protestants fight the Counterculture's insurrection of nearly fifty years of Western dismantling.

21 November 2012 21:49  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bluedog,

Well if I have hit the nail on the head, it was only by chance.

Hi Phil,

Well, I really don't see why the government thinks it should legislate on this above the Church's decision.

21 November 2012 22:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ernsty

Mission Care, eh?

"Today, we provide nursing care and residential care in our five care homes in Bromley, and Southwark."

A safe place for you in your dotage, my friend!

A good Christian organisation too and I am glad you are spending your time fruitfully. Bet you have some tales from the Great War.

Now, dare I say, there was some equivocation on your part. Have you have been learning from the Jesuits? Mission Care is not really a body of worshippers; a church.

The Inspector's enquiry was, I think, whether you are you a member of a faith group who meet in fellowship and pray and worship together?

21 November 2012 22:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mr McGregor have read your id old man. Our resident Calvinist Carl Jacobs is going to love you...


21 November 2012 22:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Hannah

The name is Jesjudmas - you must not ommit the Masons who are the real leaders and are most certainly aliens.

This communiqué is for your eyes only and will self-destruct once read.

21 November 2012 22:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Lollard - a noxious weed mingled with the good Catholic wheat!

21 November 2012 22:18  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Thank you Inspector General... God save the Queen!

21 November 2012 22:24  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!


Hilaire Belloc


So come and join the party, Blofeld. And bring len with you.

21 November 2012 22:28  
Blogger Brian West said...

Dodo

Mission Care is not a church, but Coppice Mission Church is.

Remember, 'church' properly refers to (a) the whole body of Christ on earth and (b) each local congregation.

21 November 2012 22:29  
Blogger Geoffrey Peckham said...

carl:

If you don't count his display of total cluelessness in his morning tea with Frank Griswold the morning of 9/11/2001. He was quite successful at that.

But for the rest of his tenure, we'd been better off if he'd stayed west, as it were.

But maybe (and perhaps His Grace could assist) it's that left-coasters in the UK are just as looney as Yank left-coasters?

21 November 2012 22:35  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Brian West said...

"Mission Care is not a church, but Coppice Mission Church is." Indeed, young man.
They try too hard to be too clever by half. Looks like they are all stuck at stage 1 of St Paul and Peters Rhythm and Rhyme activity package. *chuckling sniggers*

A sentence like "Ernst is one of the real 'elderly' there and loves what his church tries to do for the aged and disabled and to show Christs love for all of us from believers who young people may think have gone beyond their 'use by' date! ;-)" goes completely over certain noggins!

'We support'..shows are aims in the community and how we help those Christians within the groups to achieve this. My clear stating of scripture on this blog shows what we largely agree on in our church..Could I be clearer??

Well done, my boy.

Ernst

21 November 2012 22:41  
Blogger Brian West said...

Thank you, Ernst, but I might just be a bit more elderly than you. Respect (mutual).

21 November 2012 22:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Brian West

Thank you.

I see the Coppice Mission Church was registered as a charity in 1991 and provides "Sunday Services and Bible Study".

But what do these "religious activities" consist of?

What is a Coppice Christian?

21 November 2012 22:47  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

21 November 2012 21:41
Hannah, having read the tosh you posted at the above, none of your comments relate to me in any way, so why address the matter to me

I have not implied anything you attempted to attribute to me

21 November 2012 23:13  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

dodo

If you did but read you would know that we came from Mission Care http://www.missioncare.org.uk/about-us/history.aspx
and our basis/basics of faith are
http://www.missioncare.org.uk/about-us/basis-of-faith.aspx.

Do try to take the time if Ernst gas provided what was asked, there's a nice dickie ;-)

"But what do these "religious activities" consist of? "Sunday Services and Bible Study". We take our faith seriously, my boy.

21 November 2012 23:46  
Blogger Sadie Vacantist said...

@Phil Roberts

I think it might be deeper than that. They see that at the heart of it the feminist agenda is deeply anti-family and anti-Christian. They are not stupid and can see that this message has caused untold pain to the 60s generation. Feminism has not worked and they want something better for their children.

Of course, your qualification is perfectly valid. My hope (and now my prayer) is that these evangelicals re-examine the Catholic option.

22 November 2012 00:09  
Blogger John Magee said...

What a smarmy looking crew in this photo. A hippy looking Archbishop and a blubbering red eyed priestess who, for the time being at least, will never become a bishopette.

I pray to God I never see a picture like this in my lifetime of a future pope in a similar situation. If I do I will be forced to apoatate.

Fortunatley the Roman Catholic Church doesn't tolerate such nonsense and thinks in terms of centuries and not passing fads so I can feel safe at home. In Rome.

Don't these people realize there are Christians being persecuted today in places like Egypt and Nigeria? Can't they do something better with their spare time than debate an issue that was settled for REAL Catholics almost 2,000 years ago?

22 November 2012 00:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

Our resident Calvinist Carl Jacobs is going to love you...

What is this then? An attempt at "Let's you and him fight" perhaps? And here I have been chuckling at your woman-baiting comments on this thread. I thought to read some to my wife - but only from a distance and with clear paths of escape already determined.

carl

22 November 2012 00:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Hopes raised; hopes dashed, John Magee.

One cannot blame the women alone but the leaders of their church who departed from biblical Christianity on this issue in the 1990's when they promoted the idea of women priests. Pope John Paul ended discussion on the issue in the Catholic Church and yet the liberals persist there too.

The tragedy is this was always a 'loose-loose' for the Church of England. The seeds were sown before Henry VIII'a death (he died a repentant Roman Catholic) by those who through weakness or personal ambition sought a middle-way between truth and error.

22 November 2012 00:56  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

I agree.

Imagine the visions of hell Henry VIII must have had on his death bed. Not only was the misery and deaths he caused in the process of trying to produce a male heir bad enough but the destruction of the Roman Catholic Church IN England by a former Catholic King of England were terrible sins to have on his soul when he met God. One brutal example is the execution of the Carthusian Martyrs monks of the London Charterhouse, the monastery of the Carthusian Order in central London, who enjoyed great prestige by the public for the austerity and sincerity of their way of life who were put to death by the Henry VIII's English state because they would not take the Oath of Supremacy. Their deaths occured over a period lasting from the 19 June 1535 till the 20 September 1537 was pure evil. The method of execution of these monks was hanging, disembowelling while still alive and then quartering. I hope all this agony and death he was responsible for was a vision Henry VIII saw the moment he died including the death of his former friend St. Thomas More.

The total number of Carthusians executed at Tyburn was 18 men, all of whom have been formally recognized by the Catholic Church as true martyrs.

22 November 2012 01:48  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Superted goes on the list of uncouth boors.
So many of them here - such a pity.

22 November 2012 02:18  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Laura - what is a civilized person like you doing on this forum?
(You could ask the same of me I suppose.)

22 November 2012 02:23  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Hannah burbles "If the argument is about equality (I've noted no reference to the actual religion in the backlash by the girl vicars) then can we have the same bishops and female priests, who are so concerned about equality calling for gay priests and gay marriage in Church then? That would be consistent, if this whole issue was about equality."
Wrong. Being a woman is an anatomical fact. Homosexuality is merely a form of behaviour, therefore it is not the same sort of category at all.

22 November 2012 02:26  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

John Magee your subversion seems apparent; as if they did not know. I guess when you have many adhering to a stilty-stodgy intellectual movement known as anglo-Catholicism; they have their sympathies. I do not find token Papists in the court of our beloved Queen so freely insinuating that we Protestants are all drug den sex orgy bound abortion lovers and homosexuals. Nay Counterculture dung! But alas i am in America dear chum. Hear me... Come to terms with us here in the U.S. Especially we who have a vast supply of radical-reactionaries... Not necessarily for the crown of course.

22 November 2012 03:02  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

John Magee said...

Let Ernst rephrase that for you, lad?? "Imagine the visions of hell (enter name of almost any pope of your choosing in these brackets) must have had on his death bed.

You could almost put him (Henry)in the same class of all those wonderful popes of yours? He was merely doing what he saw that accomplished the full power of Rome. He was a mere estuary whereas you are the great sea.

Blofeld

22 November 2012 03:12  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Find them(you) ... appropriate rather, Mr. Magee

22 November 2012 03:12  
Blogger John Magee said...

Blofeld

Better make sure someone puts a bottle of smelling salts into your nightwear when you die because your're going to need a heavy dose when you meet the first Pope, St. Peter, face to face, at the pearly gates...

Somehow I don't think he will be amused at some of the nasty stuff you've posted here about many of his successors.

Bon Voyage!

22 November 2012 04:12  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Corrigan 1
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!

Hilaire Belloc


So come and join the party, Blofeld. And bring len with you.

In South Efrika?

22 November 2012 05:43  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

I do hope Julias list of boresome uncouths does not include me, as I rather have the hots for the lady ;)

Cats out the bag now, that should give the bluedog something to go after

22 November 2012 05:56  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Julia

That opinion of yours is quite irrelevant, in so much as it is the government and the "liberal establishment" who views sex and sexuality in the same light as any reading of the main newspapers in this country will tell you. Hence the equality and discrimination laws and that they may be used to push this legislation through. Ergo my comment.

22 November 2012 06:29  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

The CofE has now confirmed its role as a a weathervane - driven by societal, secular and liberal values.

The Catholic Church however remains a signpost - pointing to the truth.

Meanwhile Cameron, rather sinisterly, says the Synod should "get with the programme"

Oohh err.

What "programme" exactly. Is this an insight that he and his ilk have decided how we must be?

So much for freedom of thought, speech and action.

Yet another insight into the creeping authoritarianism in the UK.

22 November 2012 07:50  
Blogger len said...

The Catholic Church is guilty of wedding Christianity to paganism..this is a fact anyone can find this out with a little thought and the study of Scripture.

The Reformation was a initiated by those who desired to uncover God`s Truth buried under pagan doctrines.


'Headship' in the Christian Church is clearly defined(this is not the Pope who attempts to usurp Christs authority but Christ Himself)

'Headship' is clearly defined in the Christian family and this is found in the Scriptures.The Church is not supposed to follow secular 'leadership'but the True Head of the Body which is Christ Himself.

22 November 2012 08:25  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

len, of course the CofE has no truck with paganism whatsoever - like Yuletide (Christmas), Eostre (Easter) and Samhain (All Souls).

They would never "dress" a church or have a harvest festival would they.

What are you like....?

22 November 2012 08:54  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Having, rather reluctantly, watched some BBC coverage it is noticeable how little is heard from those who favour male Headship and how much is heard from tearful and "angry" women vicars, bishops, politicians, "talking heads".

Interesting how soon people are coming out with measures of compulsion from expulsion to removing "equal opps" opt outs from the church.

This could get nasty as the secular world invades the spiritual - not just for the CofE but all other Christian churches, Islam, Hinduism and so on.

China has a state "Catholic" church wherein its members are dictated to, watched over and appointed by the State so as to ensure, in Cameron's sinister words, "get with the programme".

The UK is now turning the clock back to the worst of the "reformation".

Who would have thought that we would be at this point having imagined we had defeated Fascism and Communism in the West.

...and the Tories are taking us there.

Traditional CofE people now at least have up to 3 years to turn to Rome and the religion of their forbears.

22 November 2012 09:04  
Blogger William said...

I see that Giles Fraser is saying that applying equality legislation to the CoE would be a step forward. Personally I would rather disestablish than have the secular courts resolve our differences, but then I suppose that makes me a biblical literalist.

He also says:

"What happened at the General Synod is that a dogmatic minority of biblical literalists and an even smaller minority of Roman Catholic wannabes – both of whom, for entirely different reasons, reject women as church leaders – have been appeased in the name of some twisted version of inclusion."

and

"I am ashamed to be a part of the Church of England. The suicidal stupidity of voting against female bishops has further discredited an organisation that has been haemorrhaging credibility for years."

Unfortunately for him it is the "biblical literalists" who are the ones who actually have the credibility - as evidenced by the fact that it is only their part of the church that is growing. Perhaps Mr Fraser should consider hanging his head in shame somewhere else - like the Quakers.

22 November 2012 09:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Julia Gasper said...

"Laura - what is a civilized person like you doing on this forum?
(You could ask the same of me I suppose.)"


LOL!

22 November 2012 10:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len said ...

(in his new found spirit of brotherly tolerance)

"The Catholic Church is guilty of wedding Christianity to paganism..this is a fact anyone can find this out with a little thought and the study of Scripture."

Funny that. Catholics do think and Catholics do read scripture. Guess someone is wrong.

Ummm .... Now I wonder who I should trust. A person who grabs his faith from interner surfing and changes his ideas weekly. Or 2000 years of consistent teaching and reflection on God's word by great men who have devoted their lives to Him?

Difficult decision that I will have to give much thought to.

22 November 2012 10:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Well, I've decided!

22 November 2012 10:30  
Blogger William said...

Dodo

Did the Spirit of Truth help you make that decision or did you have to ask someone sufficiently advanced up the RC hierarchy?

22 November 2012 10:50  
Blogger OldJim said...

laura hits the nail on the head

"The moment we cease to disagree and hurt each other is the moment the church ceases to be church."

This post is surely HG's most sublime piece of satire yet. Can't believe that others aren't seeing that immediately.

"This is why the Archbishop of York is right when he says there will be women bishops, because Anglicanism is a communion, and in that koinonia is toleration of mutual exclusives." (emphasis retained)

Huge belly laughs over here.

22 November 2012 11:46  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Dodo, Catholics read the vile Black Bible--complete with Apocrypha. Again it is not that Catholics offer truth; but are seducing by default. Since you all think The Priesthood of All Believers are not to be found. And a Protestant is simply a postmodern pervert. Degenerating the Protestant faith, perhaps for equalities sake with the Papist. May those Protestants realizing the front by the postmodern Anglo-Catholic and his post-Counterculture ally of dismantling; wield their cross at these destroyers. And dismantle the whole program of women clergy.

22 November 2012 12:43  
Blogger John Magee said...

Len

The Reformation destroyed the unity of Christendom forever. It caused terrible wars between people who a few years before lived as neighbors in harmony and happiness as Catholics yet because of the zealotry of the Reformers took up arms and killed each other suported by their Protestant princes. Mainly by those German Lutheran princes who saw the immediate economic advantages of the new Protestant break with Rome and how they could become wealthy taking over church property and lands.

The Reformation has give rise in world to over 20,000 denominations , sects, and cults each claiming to have the "truth' in the Gospels. How can so many Protestant churches each have the "truth" to the exclusion of all others? Why are thy so confused and all over the map like trying to please everone the C of E has ben trying to do for the past 500 years?

Why is Protestanism's many denominations built on a sandy beach changed by daily tides and not on the rock that Jesus instructed St Peter, the first pope, to build the true Church?

The Roman Catholic and Eastern orthodox Chrches do not have this problem of chaos and disunity.They have one interpretaion of the Bible and have suffered enormous persecution for this stance since the early Church.

We all know the major Reformation faiths like the C of E , the Luherans , Presbyterians, etc, etc, etc. But lets not forget the other children of the Reformation include, the the Anabaptists, the Puritans, the Shakers in England who later migrated to New England, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science ,the Nazarene's, The Preacher Methodist pastor Jim Jones who the was the founder and leader of the Peoples Temple, best known for the mass suicide in 1978 of 914. The Christian cult at Waco, Texas, Fundamentalist snake handlers of the Appalachian Mountains in the USA, the Jesus Freaks we saw on every stret corner in the 1970's, and the rise of TV Evangelist preachers in the 1960's, and many more bizarre examples of the chaos that resulted from Luther nailing his 95 theses on the doors of All Saints Church at Wittenberg, Germany on Octobr 31m 1517.

Most of these people are good Christians who love Jesus in their hearts and strive after the perfect life in the Gospels but they are totally misguided because of the corruption of the Bible by extremists after the Reformation who set the ball rolling which still hasn't stopped creating new sects while liberalism is destroying the early denominations by adapting passing theologicl fads.

22 November 2012 15:09  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Papist Magee, In order to resist you all; it a necessity that you all are exposed as Satanic... And rightly so because of the spiritual reality of such affairs: as man, God and all that... Including the primacy of The Reformation.

"The final object of ecumenism, as Catholics conceive it, is unity in faith, worship, and the acknowledgment of supreme spiritual authority of the bishop of Rome." -Catholic Priest J. Cornell

22 November 2012 15:56  
Blogger William said...

John Magee

"The Reformation destroyed the unity of Christendom forever."

The loss of unity in Christendom was a small price to pay for the ability to advance the Kingdom of God by preaching the salvation of the Gospel to the common man.

Besides, where could those Catholics seeking to flee the errors of Rome go to if not the Protestant traditions?

22 November 2012 16:48  
Blogger John Magee said...

William

How about the Catholics who were satisfied to remain in the Church of Rome who lived in lands where their king or local prince adopted the Reformation and Catholics were either forced to convert to Protestantanism, leave, or die?

Contrary to what you have probably indoctrinated with by your Sunday school teacher the Reformation wasn't always welcomed by the inhabitants. Even in England at the time of Elizabeth I possibly as many as 60% of the population wanted a return to the "old Church". In Scandinavia the Reformation wasn't something the majority of the population wanted. After their kings adopted the Lutheran faith The Lutheran clegy there cleverly left the Medieval churches intact and even kept the outward Catholic liturgy to try and snow job the population pretending nothing had really changed...very much. The Reformation was not popular in the Highlands of Scotland where a large percentage of the population is still Roman Catholic.

To be fair there would have been a lot more Protestants in Catholic countries had their choice of religion be a matter of freedom of conscience and their not having to face Catholic persecution.

I wish both Catholic and Protestant rulers of that time would have left the matter of faith as an individual choice for their subjects. We know politics would never have allowed this to have happened.

22 November 2012 18:42  
Blogger len said...

Mr Magee,

With the greatest respect the Reformation was essential to get Christianity back on course!.
Rome(under Constantine who was Caesar and remained Caesar and a pagan ruler under his version of 'Christianity' which indeed was Universal' because it incorporated pagan religions) had corrupted Christianity for its own ends.

What Satan cannot destroy he corrupts so as to render useless.You will see this pattern throughout history with religions and with people.
It will only take a little of your time to prove Catholicism a false religion.Make a list of all your Catholic 'theologies' and try and find them in the Word of God ........I will give you a few to start you off(there are too many to list here.)

Purgatory,the 'Divinity of Mary',the Pope,the Rosary,........

22 November 2012 19:15  
Blogger John Magee said...

len

Reform in Rome at the time of the Renaissance Popes was absolutely necessary. Not what finally happened. The destruction of Christendom. The Reformers gave into their own vanities, as men of the Bible they should have known better, and they threw the baby out with the bath water in the name of "reform" when their movement became unstoppable and the Reformers ego's grew accordingly.

Perhaps with all the negative and sef destructive things we see the mainline Protestant Churches doing to themsleves today, the Cranmer article above is a good example, the Protetsnats need to have a new "reformation" and go back to their roots and rethink where they are at uin 2012. They are giving into the vanities of our times: feminism and radical homosexual demands.

22 November 2012 19:27  
Blogger len said...

Agreed Mr Magee .

We do need a' new Reformation' and to get back to the basics.

The '39' articles seems a good place to start and then start shedding some of the 'liberalism' which has crept into the church.

22 November 2012 19:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. A fellow has tried to educate that idiot Len that we RCs worship God, but the buffoon keeps going on about the furniture of our church. He must have learning difficulties or special needs...


22 November 2012 19:38  
Blogger William said...

John Magee

"Contrary to what you have probably indoctrinated with by your Sunday school teacher the Reformation wasn't always welcomed by the inhabitants"

Interesting comment. I never went to Sunday School, having been an agnostic most of my life, but I have taught in Sunday School. As all our teaching was based on the Bible, the only church history we covered was from Acts and Paul's epistles. Do Catholics teach their children more recent history? I'm guessing that there are a few stories of Catholic Saints during the Reformation to be told.

"I wish both Catholic and Protestant rulers of that time would have left the matter of faith as an individual choice for their subjects. We know politics would never have allowed this to have happened."

Quite.

This reminds me of when my wife and I were looking for a senior school for our daughter and we thought we would investigate an independent Catholic School (The Marist - which I subsequently discovered was a religious order founded in Lyons, France, in 1816 for missionary and educational work in the name of the Virgin Mary, but let's not go there). Anyway, we went to see the headmaster who was a nice enough chap and asked a few questions. Then he asked our daughter, "If you could meet anyone now or in the past, who would it be?", "Henry VIII" she replied (being a fan of the Tudors). There was a pause then quietly "He was certainly a colourful character".

22 November 2012 21:10  
Blogger John Magee said...

William

Yes, Henry VIII was quite a flashy King. I imagine His favorite color must have been red.

When I am asked who I would like to meet now or from the past I always say my dead parents and grandparents.

I would like to tell them I understand them at last and ask their forgiveness... and forgive them.

22 November 2012 21:52  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

You know the old adage. "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". I'm not too good at following that wisdom because my honey pot is usually empty here because of the stuff I post.

I disagree with Len most of the time but that's fine. If people agreed here all the time this place would be as dull as dishwater.

Len harms no one here and articulates his views very well and with a passion I can respect. Cranmer's Blog is, after all. a Anglican/Protestant environment.

We vent our RC passions and grievances here and are tolerated and that is a good thing. You, in particular, add some excellent spice to the stew here in many of your posts which I very much appreciate.

22 November 2012 22:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


You are a wise man John. It is our earthly situation that the Catholic church is all the stronger from the wake of the Reformation. One cannot know the value of good unless there exists the situation of bad. This is not to decry protestism per se, but to acknowledge the fact that others see Christ’s message differently. The protestants are doing their best, but as we know, they are becoming rather light on the Word.

Interesting times, what !

22 November 2012 22:57  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Well said.

22 November 2012 23:41  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

I must Protest.

23 November 2012 02:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Of course youmust, Mr Mcgranor!

23 November 2012 22:45  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

When I get off the train in my home town and look at the Old Catholic Church boarded up, in a central area which has been cleansed of original types

It pains me to think of the silly fall out we had, in this region now controlled by those all too foreign

My Grandfather trained as a Preist, until he met my Prody Grandma and fell in love

I was brought up in a split family who had to learn that family comes first

24 November 2012 01:01  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Bred in the bone, true culture withers. Such sentiment as Europe and the broader West's social decline: Used in a such a manner as you and yours has. Is quite expected from the Papist. In order to build consensus. Also, such racialist sentiment must fall to the greater and real aspects regarding the sociology of man. If it is Europe's destiny to be so indifferent. Then surely the Holy Spirit will inspire elsewhere. It is key that the social decline is halted and/or realized; and that our religious convictions before; and despite such social upheaval -- stay intact..

24 November 2012 03:14  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

McGregor Sir it is not racialist sentiment, it is family sentiment, we have no animosity towards inter racial marriage within the family

If that where the choice of the individual, just as my Grandfather overcame his prejudice for love, so we must

But we also needed to overcome our religious tribalism, to be truly bonded in love as a family in the natural sence, as God meant it to be, I was brought up in the sway of the CofE

But alas, the Catholic Church is still boarded up and that is because muslims are now predominant in the area and do not go to church

24 November 2012 09:35  
Blogger len said...

Inspector you are the best reason [for me at least] to never become a Catholic.

I am surprised the Jesuits haven`t kidnapped you and Dodo yet because you portray 'Catholicism' as the 'preferred' religion of those opposed to the scriptures, haters of large sections of humanity,unable to think for themselves, unable to accept the truth, unable to change,in fact without hope prisoners of your own religious mindset.In fact objects of pity rather than scorn,

24 November 2012 10:58  
Blogger len said...

Question. What does a Catholic believe?.

Answer, Whatever he is told to believe by a group of Catholic 'theologians' who decide what to believe for every Catholic because they (Catholics)[apparently] cannot be trusted to understand what God says through His Word for themselves.

This is a 'pretty neat trick'by the Catholic theologians who can 'hoodwink'the unsuspecting into believing anything they say.And if anyone contests these 'Catholic Theologians ' they condemn them to Hell.Whoever would think up a religion like that?.




24 November 2012 11:56  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

Fellows of the 'blog. I only wish that opposing the postmodern was just not of the fringe. I say to all Protestants and even the Emergents -- that understanding the illusion as delusion is imperative to our survival. Brought about by man's dismantling of faith and culture by his past Counterculture experiment. What these Papists are saying here is quite clear. They are redefining us and reinventing us. Insynch with the postmodern revision, deconstruction and absurdity. Because we have allowed this wordly unity and indifference. Culminating in an inordinately subjective consciousness; that cannot handle reality and his place in it. The lack of response is commentary of itself. A Protestant is not a Free Mason; so such equality, inclusion and tolerance is not Gospel. We are ordained to resist and reject Rome. And we protest -- Satan's incarnations, his ploys and tricks.

24 November 2012 14:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len asked ...
"Whoever would think up a religion like that?"

Er, you just did! It is a twisted and dishonest presentation of Catholicism. And the worst of it is, you know this to be so.

Mr Macgrannor said ...
"We are ordained to resist and reject Rome."

In which sense of the term? If it be to prearrange unalterably, to predestine, it rather contradicts your belief in free-will.

25 November 2012 00:28  
Blogger Mr. Mcgranor said...

DoDo Bird, Of course God wills before man. And as a consequence of his soveignty; God keeps his mind far above man. To achieve his grace, thus guidance, is to come to him and ask him. So the Word prayer and diciphering with our mental faculty comes in handy...Especially with God in mind.

25 November 2012 01:20  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Mr Macgrannor

Not 'ordained' then but based on your understanding of what God wants from you - assisted by His grace, accessed by prayer and bible reading.

How very orthodox.

However, "diciphering with our mental faculty comes in handy", suggests reason needs to support inspiration, or at least be in harmony, and reason that attempts to fathom God must be based on wisdom and learning.

Again, very orthodox.

25 November 2012 02:02  
Blogger John Magee said...

len

How can 25,000 + Protestant denominations, sects, and cults have 25,000 + versions of the truth in the Gospels?

25 November 2012 16:32  
Blogger len said...

Mr Magee, I have said this so many times even I am getting fed up saying it.

IF Catholics had stuck to the Word of God and not added to and taken away from the Scriptures(and added pagan doctrines) there would have been no need for a' Reformation.'All the cults and denominations are a direct responsibility of the Catholic 'religious system'.

The True Church of Jesus Christ has ALWAYS existed...... it is very small and suffers constant persecution.It is not' Catholic' in the religious denominational sense.

Religion can be 'good' and it can be 'bad' but the point is that Jesus did not come to Earth to start a' new religion Catholic or otherwise.
Jesus came to restore the broken relationship between God and man.Jesus is the Mediator(the only Mediator) between God and man.

So' religion' in many respects is quite meaningless in God`s plan for humanity.The Pharisees were VERY religious but they crucified the Son of God so what good did religion do them?.

Anyone can join a Religion but you cannot join the Body of Christ you have to be born into it!.





25 November 2012 18:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len said ...

"Mr Magee, I have said this so many times even I am getting fed up saying it."

Thank the Lord!

Some of us are certainly getting fed up with reading it. There is an answer, you know.

Christianity is not a 'religion', in the terms you mean, it is path to eternal life and the Catholic Church has been given the awesome responsibility by Christ Himself of showing people the way to this path.

Now put a sock in it, do.

I sometimes wonder why you are so obsessed with attacking Catholicism. You are, you know? And some of the nonsense you come out with is beyond the pale and smacks of desparation.

Is it because you are so unsure of the foundation of your own beliefs?

Read the Catechism and then ask sensible questions.

26 November 2012 01:49  
Blogger len said...

Dodo I am' obsessed'with the Truth as revealed in God`s Wordalso by Jesus Christ and the holy Spirit.

If you had the same' obsession' with God`s Truth perhaps you might have the courage to take a long hard look at your religion which opposes God`s Word and replaces it with the' word of men'.

28 November 2012 08:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

No len you are obsessed! An with anti-catholic (be itRoman or Anglican) and so uncertain of your faith that you invent monsters in your mind and tilt at windmills.

"'That's exactly it,' replied Don Quixote, 'that's just how beautifully I've worked it all out -- because for a knight errant to go crazy for good reason, how much is that worth? My idea is to become a lunatic for no good reason at all.'"

To paraphrase:

"The ability to reason the unreason which has afflicted my reason saps my ability to reason, so that I complain with good reason of your infinite unreason."

28 November 2012 20:07  

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